The Graying of Fandom

[billroper]

I talked with daisy_knotwise about the status of the Worldcon over lunch. For a long time, it was the premier science-fiction event of the year. Since back in 1976 with MidAmeriCon in Kansas City, it's been big, with memberships in the multiple thousands -- at least for U.S. sites.

But you know, it's not the premier SF event any more. Either Dragoncon or the San Diego Comicon have a much better claim to that title, based simply on the number of people who gather there who are interested in science fiction. And it's a crowd that skews younger than the Worldcon crowd too, at a time when we're sitting around at our regional cons and lamenting the graying of fandom and declining attendance.

And there are moments when I'm cynically led to wonder if that's not what some folks want, especially for the Worldcon. I've long heard folks lamenting that the Worldcon was too big, that there were too many people there who didn't belong at Worldcon.

So you do things to make going to Worldcon less attractive. I remember when the Worldcon dealers room was the most wonderful bazaar in the world. But the rooms in Winnipeg and Toronto were weak and sickly things, because the U.S. dealers were effectively locked out. It didn't do much for the art show either.

Of course, with the Canadian Worldcons, there's no NASFiC, but that hardly matters any more, because the NASFiC's been a weak and sickly thing itself since it was once hijacked by Dragoncon. The last NASFiC that I went to was in L.A. in 1999 and -- as I recall -- barely a thousand fans showed up. I don't remember what NASFiC attendance figures used to be like for sure, but I remember having a fine time in Louisville, and Austin, and Phoenix.

I didn't even bother to go to the NASFiC in Collinsville this year. Sad, isn't it, when I can't muster enough enthusiasm to drive a few hundred miles for the NASFiC? (Mind you, Gretchen's surgery would have caused me to abandon any plan I had, but I never had a plan.)

So if Worldcon voting fandom is saying "screw the dealers" and "screw the artists", it can't be any great surprise if they're discovering that they can make more money elsewhere -- maybe not in places I want to go, but I'm not making my living as a dealer, so I don't have to go there.

And the Worldcon gets less attractive and the marginal fans go elsewhere too. And fandom gets a little grayer.

It's a shame too. SF's never been stronger in the mass media than it is now. But to a lot of fans, media's a dirty word. Written SF's the thing that counts.

And, you know, I love written SF. And I love good SF and fantasy films and TV. And I still love my comic books.

You know why I ended up a voracious reader of science fiction? Two words: Julie Schwartz.

I read Green Lantern. I read Adam Strange. I read the bleeding Atomic Knights.

And later, I graduated to the hard stuff.

Where are we going to find that next generation of readers?

Comments

Bringing up the next generation

[controuble.livejournal.com]

You and daisy_knotwise have started on the next generation...
At least I assume you plan to bring her up to be a reader.
I have also - Alex loves to read and I have started him off on things like "A Wrinkle in Time" and the Emily Rodda books and he's currently reading the 7th HP book. He also found comic books on his own (I didn't do those as a kid - I was reading mysteries back then).

[sraun]

Part of the problem with the greying of fandom is that an interest in SF/Fantasy is no longer a good marker for fannish. And we haven't figured out a fix to our filters.

I'm not claiming that because you're primarily interested in anime or TV or movies you're aren't a fan. I am claiming that an interest in any of those is insufficient evidence that you're a fan.

This is not an original diagnosis by me - I ran across it somewhere on the web a couple of years ago, and immediately agreed with it. Unfortunately, I haven't come up with, or heard of, a solution to the problem.

[singlemaltsilk.livejournal.com]

I submit that a large part of the problem with the greying of fandom is the idea that one must produce some arbitrary amount of sufficient evidence of fannishness in order to be considered a fan.

[ldwheeler.livejournal.com]

True. I would say one's a fan if one considers oneself a fan.

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

Hopefully we're raising them. But it's not just readers we need. My brother Phil is a huge reader, but hates fandom. Mike reads, games - compter, online, bord, role you name it, and on a small scale like cons. Ian? Games and likes to game at cons, Vicky? Reads, games and enjoys filking.

We also need to find some younger blood for running cons, I'm not even going to calculate the average age the FKO con com.

My brain just kind of exploded, I think it was going to say something about how Ad Astra the local sf/fantasy con has changed big time in the last 20 years. It's going to be interesting to see where things go in the next 10-20 years.

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Bill, you know I love you like a brother. Actually, rather more than my brother.

You don't get it.

You don't get any of it.

First: As scs_11 pointed out in the previous thread, the non-US dealers get kinda screwed by US worldcons. More to the point, I can't think of anyone who votes for dealer convenience... except some of the dealers.

Second: You say it yourself, when you say "SF's never been stronger in the mass media than it is now." You try to justify the Old Guard by following that with, "But to a lot of fans, media's a dirty word. Written SF's the thing that counts."

No, Bill. No, it's not. Not anymore.

There are lots and lots and lots of people who do get into the written SF by way of stuff they see on TV or in the movies or in comics. But the point is, the written word not only is not the only outlet anymore, it's nowhere near the biggest. I'm at Dragon*Con this weekend, and I've seen costumes of every type and stripe (including a Spaceman Spiff with a toy tiger on his shoulder). One of my very favorite? A normally-dressed young woman with a green diamond above her head: an active Sim.

The young people are following the media they're used to, just as you did. Thing is, you are invoking the media as it was fifty years ago. Julie Schwarz!? I could bring Cap'n Billy's Whiz Bang into it if you like, but I think you get it, you just don't get it. There are many, many ways for people to get into fandom these days.

And, Bill...? As they always do, the young look at those who cling to what they know... and they see the old. As huskiebear says, there isn't much call for blacksmiths these days, either. Times change. Technology changes.

SF is the literature of imagination, of dynamism, of youth. Of being young at heart and having dreams. Don't lose that just because the WorldCon isn't what you wish it was anymore.

Wait a moment...

[(Anonymous)]

While I certainly agree that the young are flocking to DragonCon in droves, and that the quality of some of their panels equates/exceeds that of panels I've seen anywhere else, and that the dealers and hucksters are many and varied...there's one little difference between DCon and a "more traditional" SF con. And I've been to DCon in 1991, 1992, 1993, 2000 (give or take) and 2003, and my husband to the first 2 of those and to 2005, so I don't think we're too far out of touch.

I could take my then younger sons to a "more traditional" con, and know that all the PG-13 and up material would be either after they went to bed, or behind closed panel doors.

This is manifestly *not* the case at DCon. Take your young child or pre-teen out during any of the late-afternoon and evening festivities, and you'll get to explain why those black-clad Goths are out hunting Christians, or why that woman is flogging that 3/4 naked man, or why that other woman is wearing body paint. Now, if you're up for that, more power to you. If not - well, DCon's a poor substitute for a convention in that case. That which is old is not automatically good, that which is young is not automatically better.

[scs-11.livejournal.com]

Tom and I seem to be on the same page here. I love written SF, I love 'Serenity' and 'Buffy' and a few remaining comics. If the worldcon and crew are insisting on litrachoor first, should we be surprised that folks with other primary interests vote with their feet and hit Dragoncon?

I'm having a lot of fun with the furries and the Browncoats and the Stilyagi these days. In fact, the Stilyagi are a great example of the right vs the wrong way to deal with changing fandom. They look at SF, see what's fun, what draws people and what's interesting. Then they cater to it. The result is a fun, interesting con that draws more people each year. And many of those attendees are in their 20s. Sounds to me like the right answer. Too bad Worldcon can't see it.

[billroper]

Since you and scs_11 both seem to have misunderstood me, I obviously haven't been clear enough.

I don't have a problem with the fact that for many fans of SF and fantasy, the current gateway drugs aren't likely to involve the written word. I think that's a good thing. I cherish the fact that I can turn on the TV and find that a program like Heroes (for which I coincidentally bought the DVD set today) is a hit.

I have a problem with the fact that the ship is well out of the dock and it seems to me that many of the people involved with the Worldcon are standing on the dock going, "Bunch of young whippersnappers! What's the point to all this media nonsense anyway? When I was a wee lad, I read Astounding Science Fiction and I pubbed my ish and I once got a Harry Warner LOC!"

I would like to be more inclusive, not less inclusive. And I use Julie Schwartz as an example, because I think Julie did get it and because I'm one of a generation of SF fans that Julie helped create. Just like Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and now Tim Kring busily created more generations of fans.

Who don't go to Worldcon.

Because Worldcon doesn't want them.

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

I wasn't much of a comics kid, but I read my first Andre Norton book at about 11 years old...and some not very good children's SF before that. OTOH, I went to my first con in my early forties.

I don't know what my point is entirely, but I do think about whether there may have been people in those intervening three decades, wondering how to reach out to younger fans. (Well, I guess part of my point is the difference between being a fan of speculative fiction reading and being "in fandom".)

[(Anonymous)]

There are many young fantasy readers out there now, in large part due to the HP books. However, when we were young, reading sf or fantasy was weird. Now it is mainstream. Our youth don't have to go to cons to find other people who like "that stuff." One of the things that drew people to cons was to be with others who had the same interest; this motivation has, I believe, largely vanished.

Having not been to a recent Worldcon (but hoping that it is getting more possible, at least from the financial standpoint), I should't really comment on what's happening with Worldcon; however, I suspect that it may need to decide to have a literature focus and leave the other aspects to other venues.

[andpuff.livejournal.com]

Our youth don't have to go to cons to find other people who like "that stuff." One of the things that drew people to cons was to be with others who had the same interest; this motivation has, I believe, largely vanished.

Lots of interesting stuff both in Bill's post and in answer to it but I think, for me, this was the pertinent point about young fen.

[drzarron.livejournal.com]

We have a huge generation of readers and writers, they just aren't reading and writing what we're use to.

While many "Science Fiction Fans" striates everything. BOOKS are everything, Comics has SOME purpose, the Interweb is.. that THING that is destroying the world.

But our teen generation doesn't striate. EVERYTHING is important to them, everything has the same weight. Books, TV, Internet content, Manga, comics, text messages, blogs, movies... to them it is all the same. And if you take that in to account they are much more prolific that even we are.

They have brains and are expressing themselves and some amazing things are being written out there. Sure, the ease of expression also means a lot of crap too.

For several years now, I've gone to realize that many of the categories of the Hugo's are dinosaurs. It is time to rethink many of them. All the Fan categories need to be gutted or at least a push to get the people who nominate to expand their scope.

About 20 years ago, Diana went several years receiving "Fan Artist" nominations and was pleased to death to get them. But when I look at the current Hugo list of fan artists, they are exactly the same people. Fanzines, the same, "The Locus" awards, the same. Completely static.

People, it's the 21st century, time to embrace it. Web content needs to be addressed, encouraged.

[jhayman.livejournal.com]

Lots of food for thought in your post and the comments, some of which I agree with, some I don't.

The biggest con in Canada is Anime North. It grew from nothing to ginormous in about three years. And that's where TONS of young folks are. It's not my cup of tea, frankly, but I'll also admit to being enough of a dinosaur to just not WANT to branch out into too many more categories.

I think that Tom makes a good point about choice. Really, SF was not that broad in scope fifty or so years ago, compared to now. The range of choices in media alone make it prohibitive to keep up with everything -- especially as employed, house-owning, parental types.

But for your point about Worldcon, I also have to agree that Worldcon is self-selecting istelf out of the running.

btw, having kids doesn't necessarily ensure future fans. Both of mine love SF and fantasy in every form but prefer to give cons a miss, despite numerous years of working them.

[scarfman]

Where are we going to find that next generation of readers?

My guess? The internet. (Even before I read drzarron's comment.)

Though that doesn't necessarily mean Worldcon will survive the passing of our generation. Fandom of speculative fiction will leave behind some of its avenues and move to new ones, just as the sourceworks which inspire it leave behind some of their avenues and move to new ones.

[mvt.livejournal.com]

I supported KC even though I was born in Montreal. My husband worked acrively for the bid. I don't think fans think screw the dealers or the art show. They go where they hope convention will be good. Sometimes the fans are cluless IMHO. I would have rather seen 2008 in Chicago than Denver myself. The Montral bid has some elements that are non inclusive.
sigh.

WorldCon - going down hill

[(Anonymous)]

Bill I understand what you are saying.

Before I start I should point out that I have been on WorldCon committees, I have chaired many conventions and have been active in Fandom for many years. There are several reason that WorldCon and Science fiction conventions in general are getting smaller and smaller. Here are a few reasons in no order.

We want it small - - - One of the odder reasons is because there has been and still is a movement to keep conventions small. I have heard many organizers from across the country say that they do not want the WorldCon to become too big. That right there dooms most convention from the start.

Elitism - - - Also many WorldCon’s don’t want any Media, Anime, Gamers and other groups to attend the convention. At the last LA worldcon I was talking to a big name fan about this and he flatly said: “If they do not know the difference between a Lensman and a Skylark they shouldn’t come to the convention”. No joke, the person was deadly serious.

Cost - - - WorldCon is very, very expensive. LA worldcon was $200 at the door for all five days. DragonCon was $85 for all 4 days. (And you know what you get more for your money at DragonCon)

Zero Marketing - - - Most WorldCon do nothing for marketing or advertising. The most they do is through room parties and place ads in other conventions program books. This only reaches the already hardcore fan and doesn’t do anything to reach the general public or the regular fan.

No Change --- The WorldCon is being run the same way that it was run back in the 1980. The same program panels and the same guests. When was the last time you saw something new at a WorldCon???? Trying to get a committee to try something different or new is next to impossible, trust me I’ve tried.

I could go on and on about other problems with the WorldCon, but it just makes me depressed. But the real bottom-line is that many of the SMOFs do not want things to change. They are in charge and they love to hear themselves scream about how much they are the true fan, the true guardian of fandom and they would rather run fandom/Worldcon into the ground than change.

Eric Gerds
www.filk.com
The home of Filk Radio

Re: WorldCon - going down hill

[filkertom.livejournal.com]

Then they, and WorldCon, will die off like dinosaurs. Hoarding traditions is nothing but isolationism -- and prejudice. "Futurists" are supposed to, um, embrace the future.

Re: WorldCon - going down hill

[daddy-guido.livejournal.com]

Bill, I was all set to write a long rant about why worldcon, and for that matter, "traditional" regionals are dying off.

But Mr. Gerds beat me to it, and i find i don't have much to add to what he has to say, except to put more emphasis on elitism and the cliqueishness of "gray" fandom.

The prior generation of fandom is NOT inclusive. They are almost arrogant in their traditions, which even folks like me who are "between" generations find difficult to understand.

For a group of people who revel in literature about how the future will be different, "gray" fandom is the most change-resistant body of people you'll ever find.

Oh, The Irony.

[jeff-duntemann.livejournal.com]

Brilliant post--and very timely, considering the huge meltdown occurring right now in SFWA circles after SFWA recently tried to be the RIAA/MPAA, and made a huge botch of it. Coming on the heels of SFWA VP Howard Hendrix's "webscabs" rant, this basically brands SFWA as graying and paranoid about new media and (especially) new business models.

Here's a pointer to Hendrix. It's ugly:

http://community.livejournal.com/sfwa/10039.html

The debate over Worldcon size is nothing new; for me it was, in fact, the defining charactistic of MidAmericon in 1976, and all the foofaraw over fringefans:

Dearrrrrrrr kindly Chairman Keller,
Ya gotta understand
I'm really not a dweller
In Never-Never Land;
I do like science fiction
It's reading I can't stand!
H. P. Lovecraft, why ain't I a fan!?!

The fringefans got the message and just went off somewhere else (like DragonCon) while the rest of us are getting older and older.

The answer, perhaps, is to infiltrate DragonCon etc. and be fringefen in reverse.

Greying of Fandom

[(Anonymous)]

Hi

Hope this comment from Europe will not be too amiss.

We have the same problem over here.

What happened back in the 1970s was that the Eastercon was a gathering of all the Brit SF clans -- it is our national convention (in theory). However the computer, film, TV and games folk, were treated badly by a minority who were snooty that SF books was the only real form of SF that mattered.

By the late 1980s things had got so bad that the film, TV, gamers etc set up an alternate Eastercon (called Elydore) on the same weekend. This attracted over a third of those who would have gone to the Eastercon. (One group of half a dozen actually went to one con for one and a half days then spent a day travelling to the other con to spend the final one and a half days of the long Easter weekend there).

The split was so obvious that an Eastercon promised to cater for film, TV etc as well as books if the alternate Eastercon was not held. This happened and the numbers went back up. However after a couple of revived Eastercons they slipped back to catering to just book SF folk.

The alternate Eastercon never again ran, but the film, TV, gamers etc largely (you still see a handful at Eastercon) just set up their own conventions. So today the Eastercon is smaller than it was in the late 80s and not attracting the youngsters.

Old fans have to realise that new media is the way the world is going (and if SF fans can't accept that then who can?) Remember that the most successful SF franchise is not books, or even films (no not even all the Lord of the Rings films) but a computer game - the Halo series!

Now in addition to going to conventions I also occasionally go to a local SF group that is heavily into media. This group has an average age of being in their 30s. But surprise, surprise, about a third of them regularly read SF and fantasy as well! What's more nobody is snooty about which is a better form of SF. So where do you think these folk are going to go?

I should also point out that only 2 (excluding myself as I am not a group regular) of this group went to the Worldcon in 2005 when we had it in Britain. Why? Because all the promotional literature shrieked books, books, books. The two that went had a miserable time and reported this back to their peers. Yes there was a single Dr Who exhibit item and similarly a Stargate. But the film and media programmes were tucked away and did not even feature in the programme grid! (Just a mention on one page of the programme booklet as to where it was being held.)

Like you I read books, enjoy films and I read comics/graphic novels. I enjoy SF in all its forms (except perhaps games but I have no problem with such folk being around and I quite like to spend half an hour at a con finding out what they are into these days).

The British SF Association has the same problem and is similarly tribalistic. It has been slowly losing members for two decades now.

What will happen -- is happening -- is that the Worldcon (and British Eastercon) will continue to get older and will either die out or change. This is inevitable. The only question that remains is when this will happen.

Meanwhile I am positively encouraged by many of the other comments posted in response to this blog item.

Bill, would you like to write all this (including some of the points in the comments) up for Concatenation? (You'd have to bear in mind that Concat has an international readership who might not understand about Dragoncons and the NASFiC so this would need to be explained.) Concat is only a small (though growing) website but we do get around 10,000 visitors a month (and obviously more pages and far mor hits and search engine hits than that). However I am sure that this would be of interest.

Meanwhile all best,

Jonathan

Jonathan Cowie
http://www.concatenation.org
Greying of Fandom

Re: Greying of Fandom

[billroper]

I'd be happy to take a shot at it, although it may be a couple of weeks before I can. If I don't get the books for ISFiC Press closed, our treasurer is going to be very unhappy with me. :)