I Suppose This Seems Odd

[billroper]

daisy_knotwise and Julie are napping, Katie is supposed to be napping (but isn't), and I've just finished logging onto the work system for the second time since leaving at 7:45 PM last night to fix some more bugs. (Maybe I've gotten it right this time -- we'll see.) So I've got time to get this out of my system.

Now I suppose this may seem odd coming from me (as someone who has been a guest at a number of conventions over the years and who is one of those old fart filkers), but I feel the need to ask a question:

Am I doing myself a disservice by writing too many songs?

This is motivated, in part, by the fact that the last three songs that I've posted have gotten a grand total of one comment. And it's possible that everyone is pretty busy or had nothing to say. It's possible that the songs just sucked and everyone is being nice by keeping their mouths shut.

But the other thing is that I bury some of the songs that I've written that I really like under an avalanche of material. I've written fourteen songs this year, ten in 2007, eight in 2006, etc. I've churned out a silly number of songs (at least for me -- I'm aware that there are folks who write faster yet) since wrapping up Chicon 2000.

I barely sing anything from the two CDs that I've got in print, because I've got nearly three albums worth of pretty decent stuff that I've written since then. And somehow, it's almost always more fun to sing new stuff, because there's a chance that someone hasn't heard it yet.

I see a lot of folks who "camp out" on a relatively small number of songs. Many of those songs are pretty good. We hear them at pretty much every con. If the writer isn't at a con, other people cover those songs. (Maybe I travel too much to have my material frequently covered. I only know of two songs of mine that have been covered in recent years, so I dunno. I probably wouldn't be there if it was being covered, right? :) )

I mean, if you camp out on a song, then you're the "person who does X". Which I suppose has advantages and disadvantages... And maybe there are songs I should go and camp out on. I do dig them out of the book now and again and sing them when they fit in.

Anyway, I like writing new material, so I'm not likely to stop any time soon (depending on the whims of children).

But I guess all this proves that any of us can be subject to a sudden bout of introspection, no matter how long we've been doing this.

Comments

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

My reaction comes in two parts.

Songs or other, I firmly believe that writing becomes better with practice, so anyone who writes thoughtfully can't be writing too much if improvement is part of their goal.

The rest of your thinking here is something I've been wondering about over my few years of participation. The *sixth* song I wrote got a really positive reaction from our local filk crowd, so I played it at one-shots and circles repeatedly for two years, figuring I couldn't go far wrong. Now I'm at a point where I've written quite a few things that I think are better, but my old friend has become a bit of an albatross. I still like the song and I'm happy to play it *for the purpose of providing enjoyment to people who want to hear it*, but not because I think it's representative of me now.

I suggest it might come down to motivation for the writing and playing. Some people may think about exposure of a song that has award potential, or songs that promote a CD. Some just write for the sake of writing and let the audience figure it out. :-)

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

(Not nearly so thoughtful as the 1st comment.) It's not crap. I don't believe you could consistently write crap (as opposed to the occasional clunker, and no, I don't have anything particular in mind). Keep on keepin' on.

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

This is a tough one. Right now, I'm in the opposite position, as I've written very little in recent years. I've only written two things this year, and both were at-the-con parodies.

I don't know that volume of songs makes that much difference in whether or not you get comments, but I could be wrong.

No, I didn't think the last three songs sucked. But first, I haven't been in the habit of commenting on posted lyrics in any case, and second, for me personally, there wasn't anything that immediately grabbed me, that made me want to speak up. My style isn't yours, my taste isn't yours, so please apply huge quantities of salt here. It's just that they seemed a little general in tone (I have a preference for specificity, for painting word pictures with recognizable detail), and I had trouble getting a clear read on what you were trying to say with them. I note that of your last several songs (I clicked on your "lyrics" tag to get to all the song postings), the ones that got the biggest positive reactions are "Just Play" and "Stuff", both of which are very straightforward expressions of things that a lot of people can relate to.

This is a personal reaction, not anything close to an objective judgment. I know a lot of people love more general, more, well, poetic expression. It's just not my button.

And overall, I think it would be an error to assume that no comments means a negative reaction. "Nothing to say" strikes me as much more likely.

Also, songs often get more of a reaction when they're heard, with the music. LJ isn't a great debut medium.

The main thing is, if you like writing new material, then keep doing it. If nothing else, it allows you to pick and choose the best stuff, and the stuff that's gotten the best reaction in performance, when putting together the track list for your next CD.

[catalana.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you have a bit of a problem being overlooked because of that. I think it's easier to focus on people who only have one or two songs because, as you say, they get remembered for that. I think that you get remembered as generally good, but you don't necessarily get remembered for a particular song. (Except "Teenage Popsicle Girl", naturally.) *grin*

Actually, oddly, I think people are remembering more of your funny stuff because you don't have as much of it and so you tend to do it more often. You need something to lighten the mood, so you go to one of a few songs. Particularly if you're doing it joint with Gretchen, because you don't have as many songs together.

The fact that you write so much serious stuff means that, yeah, you're cycling through it faster and not playing some really good songs that you have. (After all, think how much I had to prod you to bring out "Miracle Man" again!) Is this a problem? Well, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to be the next It Filker (which is kind of a scary thought), then yes you're going about it wrong. But if you goal is to write a lot of good stuff, then you're doing fine. If you're writing for yourself and for a few other people you'd like to share it with...then you're doing just fine.

We can talk about this more via email if you want.

[robin-june.livejournal.com]

What Mark said.
I rarely get enough impression to comment, from a first exposure to a song via lyrics alone. I need to wait for the audio, preferably face-to-face at a filk circle, since even the computer music files don't convey the whole thing.

And from my point of view, there is no such thing as writing too many songs. It gives you incredible, (hopefully) constantly-improving choices from your repertoire.

Don't quit writing. It hurts worse when you want to write, but can't.

[kevinnickerson.livejournal.com]

I'm going to approach this from a different view than the other comments so far: I don't comment on the songs because it's not my thing. I'm not a musical person (Since CD's fit in a bucket, I can no longer say I can't carry a tune in a bucket), and while I like listening to music, reading lyrics doesn't do anything for me.

Mind, even if you posted links to mp3's, I'd still keep quiet. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool... I can't say anything about a song beyond I did/didn't like it.

[madfilkentist]

Mark made a good point: Song lyrics by themselves, when not to a known tune, often don't get much of a reaction. It's not that people don't write them; it's that it's hard to gauge the song without actually hearing it. With your songs, perhaps even more than the average in filk, the lyrics are important and make sense by themselves. But the whole song is still the point, and people may find it harder to comment without actually hearing it. I think I do.

Another factor in the past week or so has been just the slump in posts and comments caused by Worldcon. That's probably had an effect.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I haven't been commenting as much as usual because I'm feeling kind of fried at the moment :-)

I happen to be of the "no such thing as too many songs" school of thought. Though its true that having a lot of new material means no one thing gets very much exposure :-)

[sffilk.livejournal.com]

Halevai, I should have your problem. I've not written anything in over 10 years, and I've only written about 10 songs, only a couple of which may be decent.

[pwl1.livejournal.com]

And then there are those of us who don't comment because WE CAN'T WRITE ANYTHING OURSELVES ANYWAY and are in complete awe of those who can.

I'll ask you what I asked someone else at a recent con, at a songwriting panel: Have you ever written something specifically with someone else in mind to sing it?

(It's not related to your questions, but inquiring minds want to know.)

[billroper]

Actually, yes. I wrote Behind the Mask with a pretty fair idea that I wanted catalana to sing it. Something of a special case since it's a piece from the musical, but...

[patoadam]

I think the answer to your question depends on why you write songs.

Do you write primarily to please yourself or your audience?

Are you happy to write many pleasant songs, or are you trying to write the best songs you possibly can? If the latter, do you think you can do that by giving yourself many chances to hit the bulls-eye, or by spending more time polishing each song?

What do you try to achieve when you write songs? Are you happy with the songs you write? Do they achieve what you are trying to achieve?

You mention a paucity of comments. Are you looking for comments like "That song rocks" or are you looking for constructive criticism?

[hsifyppah.livejournal.com]

I usually skip reading posts of lyrics because they don't do much for me without the music. Or worse, I start imagining them to the tune of another song by the author and then experience mental word salad from then on whenever either song gets played. Whee!

Writing more songs means that yeah, some of them get a bit buried. But I like listening to the people who have a wider repertoire more than I like listening to the folks with just one or two songs, because even if the one or two songs are REALLY AWESOME, it gets repetitive. Maybe I just have a really short attention span. Okay I KNOW I have a really short attention span.

Also, I don't know if it's the same for you as for me, but I don't find songwriting all that optional. The songs come when they come and I choose either to go with it and write them down while they're there, or forget them and lose them. Not that I'm taking dictation from my muse or anything, it takes work to get them out, but the quantity and inspiration seems so random to me. I don't know that I could choose to just write fewer songs without taking up a really engrossing new hobby or something. (And judging by your output while you have two wee tots at home, maybe that doesn't work either. :) )

[scs-11.livejournal.com]

I produce a half-dozen songs per decade, most of them throwaways. Having 'too many' is not something I'd consider a problem.

[poltr1]

I'd have to agree with the sentiment posted above: lyrics without the accompanying music lacks sufficient impact for me. Some of the filkers on my LJ-friends list routinely post lyrics to their songs, and I often skip over them.

There's also an element of envy here: I have plenty of ideas for songs, or a line or two here and there, but few of them have actually developed into full-blown songs for me.

[vixyish.livejournal.com]

Heh. This question is just too bizarre for words, to me. I struggled like hell to write enough material to fill Thirteen (and it contains three covers anyway). All my songs cost me hair-tearing frustration and tears. ALL of them.

If I could write like you I'd be overjoyed. :)

[judifilksign.livejournal.com]

As several have posted before, while I read lyrics as poetry, it is the melody combined with lyrics that generally rivet my attention.

I agree with Cat; I don't think that there is such a thing as too many songs. I also agree with Brooke; there are times when you document your muse, or you lose it. I would hate to have fewer songs from you because we didn't comment enough online!

"I've got nearly three albums worth of pretty decent stuff"
Which some of us would like to buy...

[peteralway.livejournal.com]

I could almost assemble a responce hashed together from everyone else's. First, I'm generally not much on lyrics without music, unless the lyrics are really more specific storytelling. If you posted mp3 files (that I could get with a simple "save target as" from the post--I'm on dialup and a bit of a luddite, so lot of media downloads don't work for me) I'd be listening.

Second, as far as writing too many songs--well I'm a firm believer in writing lots and hoping some is good. I've written and posted mp3's for 15 new songs this year. Out of that pile, there are three that I would consider singing in circle more than once. At least five of them are throwaways, or upon reflection, total crap that I wouldn't sing in circle once.

Third, noting the absence of LJ comments is a horrible, cold, way of condemning our own creative output. And I find myself doing the same thing. I mean jeeze, you spend all that time and effort taking this raw neat idea and painstakingly crafting it into this song that really works and you post, waiting for some comments, and the hours go by with nothing but crickets chirping. I will hypocritically suggest that you ignore that experience completely.

The world needs more housefilks to try these things out in.

[janeg.livejournal.com]

As others have said, I rarely pay too much attention to lyrices until I have heard the song. Have you considered quick uploads to Filk Archive?

I cover New Frontier and One Last Dance, but of course not when you were there! I am sure there are lots of other covers out there that you just do not hear about. Note to self: learn Stuff!

[cadhla.livejournal.com]

And see, you and I have discussed my fear of becoming a party trick -- when you finish a song, it's an event, when I finish a song, it's something else for people to scroll past.

To address Bill, rather than Vixy: yeah, I do think those of us who write a lot run the risk of doing ourselves a disservice, because dude, I could make an album every six months and still not keep pace, much less catch up. Which means that I'll never be able to perform everything, and some songs that I love very much fall into the cracks between concerts.

At the same time, as Brooke says, I don't really get a choice. I don't sit down and go 'I think I'll write a song today' -- I write down what comes out, because I can't stop it.

[(Anonymous)]

The old riddle comes to mind: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

Writing songs because you must, or even just because you can, is a Good Thing in this world. Everything else is a question of style. I'm not going to get into style, though I think I see hints of yours evolving.

You seem to be asking two questions here. I'll chime in with other posters on the second. Posting lyrics without melody is a little like posting stills from a movie. If you've already seen the movie, the pictures can bring it back to life in your imagination. Otherwise you're stuck trying to piece together a coherent story from looking at chance expressions, makeup and costumes.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

Point 1: Like most of the other commenters, I rarely get very much from just reading lyrics to an unknown tune. Even songs I end up liking a lot rarely have much impact as words alone, and even poetry I appreciate as poetry usually does even more for me when set to music.

Point 2: I'm terribly inhibited about actually saying something, even on line. If all I have is a "me too" comment I usually tell myself that nobody needs a "me too", and if I have something more meaningful to say, I frequently agonize over just what I'm going to say until I talk myself out of it. I don't want to be misinterpreted, I don't want to offend unintentionally, yada yada.

Point 3: I don't write songs myself, but I think I face some of the same issues about repertoire. Should I stick with a relatively few songs that I'm convinced I do well, or should I be more willing to dig down into my huge collection and pull something out that I haven't practiced much lately that will probably be a lot rougher -- but that people haven't heard me do at two of the last three cons? I half consciously try to do a mix of my "standards" and some older material, hopefully that I've thought of in advance and actually practiced, or at least run through a couple of times in the ramp up to the con. Depending on how many songs you aspire to perform in a weekend, I would invite you to pick an appropriate number, but at least one, older song from your repertoire that you haven't pulled out in a long time and shake the dust off it. And as for your handful of wildly popular (deservedly so) funny songs, please limit yourself to doing them because you want to, because if you do them because it's what you think everyone else wants to hear for too long, you'll get sick of them and refuse to do them any more (or at least resent being asked).

Self indulgently whiny point 4: as someone who doesn't write my own material, I feel like a second class filker because so many of the other filkers have a bookful of their own material. And as a listener, I'm always interested in seeing a different artist's take on a familiar song. So if you could find it in your heart to add a few covers to your mix, it would make me smile.

[naomilynne.livejournal.com]

If you really think you are writing too many songs, you can always send your muse over my way and let her give ME some help.

But seriously, I will confess that I don't usually do much more than glance at filk lyrics posted on LJ. It IS hard to get much of a sense of the song from the lyrics alone, and I tend to read LJ during brief moments, so 'a new song' is less likely to catch my eye than a more interesting 'personal' type of post. And if I WAS to comment, it probablywouldn't be much more than "Nice song" ... which doesn't mean much.

[billroper]

I'm bad at promotion. I frequently have to be reminded to mention that I have a couple of CDs out. :)

Your point about practice is a good one. And I know I have a few things in my songbook that are much better left buried. Thinking of them as practice is a good thing.

Feedback's important too. You play that particular song because you get good feedback on it. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you play other things too.

The first two things that I ever sang at a filk were "funny" songs that I'd written. (Whether they were actually funny based on the audience reaction -- not too good! -- is a different question altogether.) Then I wrote "One Last Battle", got a good reaction, and have been busily killing things ever since. :)

[billroper]

Thanks!

When you mention clunkers, I have a few in mind. But I try not to clunk too often...