Filk Circles: Counting On Chaos

[billroper]

Following onto the previous discussion of filk circles, I want to look at a couple of issues that mostly impact chaos circles, but occasionally come up in a bardic circle as well.

A well-behaved chaos circle tends to function like a non-topological bardic circle; that is to say, all of the members of Group X in the circle, where Group X is the group of people who tend to sing approximately once per cycle, will tend to sing approximately the same number of songs in a given time period.

Damn near tautological, isn't it? :) On average, the people who sing once per cycle sing once per cycle.

The differences between chaos and a bardic circle are:

The order of singing is not imposed in chaos, so -- in theory -- flow can be improved.

In each case, the members of Group X are self-selected. In a bardic circle, a person may "pass"; in chaos, you just skip singing for a round or more.

In a bardic circle, you must (usually) affirmatively "pass", but in chaos, you may lose your turn by being insufficiently aggressive. So it turns out that Group X in chaos is only self-selected to the extent that you're willing to be as aggressive about getting to sing as the given circle requires.

Ooh, there's the rub. There are a lot of us who aren't particularly anxious to be aggressive about breaking in with a song. In a chaos circle that is being particularly large and/or impolite, you may not get in edgewise, even if you want to be a member of Group X.

Things in such a circle are even worse for members of Group Y, which I'll define as "wants to sing occasionally", or Group Z, which I'll define as "has one song to sing". Even in an aggressive chaos circle, there's likely to be someone watching for members of Group X who are getting stepped on. God help someone in Group Y or Group Z.

A bardic circle is an inherently safer environment for performers who don't want to be aggressive. You are, modulo bathroom breaks and occasional complete breakdowns of logic, guaranteed to get a chance to sing eventually, assuming that you give the least indication of actually wanting to sing.

(Once again, I'm differentiating the performers' circle bardic from Pick, Pass, or Play bardic and commenting on the former. PPP makes it very easy to guarantee that someone in Group Z will get to sing their song, but is hard on the case where -- well, let me quote from daisy_knotwise's song on the subject:

My turn passed, I missed it, the bathroom was crowded.
I have just one chance, although slim it may be:
You can sing out of turn if somebody requests it,
But I know just five songs and nobody knows me.

The big disadvantage of PPP is that very popular, well-known filkers can find themselves selected into a Supergroup X which sings this song, then that song, then the other song, while the other potential members of Group X find themselves on the Group W bench, playing with their pencils and filling out the forms while waiting for their turn to come around on the guitar. Some folks will argue that this is a desirable result, as it reflects the collective will of the circle; while that's true, it is a circle where I will usually vote with my feet and leave for more congenial and less democratic surroundings.)

In my opinion, the right not to sing when it's your turn in a bardic circle should be as closely guarded as the right to sing. If you don't have something that fits, if you're just not in the mood right now, or whatever, it's not the business of the rest of the circle to cajole you into singing. On the other hand, it's equally important to make sure that the person whose turn it is understands that it really is ok for them to sing. In most bardics, I see us err in the former direction more than the latter.

So if you're a member of Group Y or especially Group Z, how the heck do you get to sing in a chaos circle? If the circle's not being especially aggressive, it's not too hard. There tend to be gaps between songs, which allow you to strum on your guitar or stand up with your songbook, should you be planning to perform a capella, and announce "I've got a song". This usually works.

In more aggressive circles, it's more of a problem. If you're a member of Group Z, it's entirely possible that no one knows that you've got something that you want to sing. In that case, one useful tactic (which I've frequently been happy to facilitate) is finding someone who's busy being a member of Group X, quietly approaching him when he's not singing and letting him know that you've got something you'd like to sing -- can he help you get in? Most people in our self-selected Group X will be happy to help you out.

Group Y is trickier, because that's a case where you could use the Group Z approach above, but you're more likely to be being watched by one or more of the folks in Group X, because there's one or more someones there who know you and know that you want to get in periodically. (It's also possible that there's a moderator, as vixyish pointed out in response to the previous post. That's less common in the Midwest, where we tend to self-moderate, but it'll get you to the same point.)

An attentive member of Group X should notice that someone in Group Y (or someone else in Group X, for that matter) has paged through their songbook to a particular page, grabbed a capo, has their hand on the neck of their guitar -- all of those little signs that can be used to signal "I've got something to sing now". And if you want to be a good member of Group X, you'll be looking for these things and -- especially in that nasty, aggressive, impolite chaos circle that you find yourself in tonight -- you'll pipe up and say, "Hey, Filker F, have you got something up?"

Of course, you probably can't see everyone in the circle, but there's probably two or three members of Group X who can see any given person and deduce that they might like to sing sometime soon. We just -- collectively! -- have to pay attention to what's going on around us.

Now I admit to usually being a member of that self-selected Group X -- I'd like to sing about once every time that the circle goes around. And I don't want to be a filkhog. So I start mentally tagging other people in the circle who I think are also interested in being in Group X for tonight and I keep track of how often they're singing. And so I may discover that I've sung twice, and Filker A has sung twice, as have Filkers B-D, but Filker E has sung five times.

If you're Filker E, you just might be a filkhog. :)

In general, no one should be singing more often than anyone else in the circle who intends to sing once per cycle. This is why, on occasion, someone will ask me if I can sing a song and I'll respond that I've sung just recently, but I'll try to get to it later in the evening.

There are exceptions to this rule though, and it turns out that we're looking at the same problem in a chaos circle as in a bardic circle. What actually constitutes a person-turn -- that is, one "person" taking one "turn" in the circle?

There are three members of Urban Tapestry. Do they get three turns per cycle or one? I've noticed that they usually take one -- if we can get them to sing at all some nights. They're really, really polite. :)

What about me and Gretchen? Usually, if Gretchen and I do a duet, I'll count that as my turn, not hers. Gretchen hasn't brought her guitar to a circle in a long time and tends not to perform her own material frequently, so it would feel wrong (in the filkhoggish sense) for me to say, "Well, that was Gretchen's turn -- now I'll sing this."

In other cases, I just try to figure out what they've got in mind on any given night. Once I understand that, I can keep count. :)

The rest of you who want to self-select yourselves into Group X should be counting too. And you should keep an eye on what's going on around you and listen to what everyone else is saying, because if you do that, you're less likely to step on someone else -- and the less that you step on someone else, the less likely you are to be stepped on in return. Politeness breeds politeness, but in order to be polite, it really helps to be paying attention.

Here's an example: catalana and I occasionally perform a couple of songs in sequence from the musical that I've been working on sporadically. I play the guitar for her to sing Behind the Mask, then I follow up by playing and singing Illusions, where Erica sings the harmony line. If we're planning on doing this, I generally announce that Erica's going to sing a song and I'm going to follow it. If someone tries to interpose between the two songs, I will step on them, because they've simply managed to not pay attention -- possibly by accident, but I said I was going to sing next for a very specific reason and I intend to do so.

Look, I know that I'm quite capable of being impolite enough to get a song in at any time that I really want to. (I'm also pretty much capable of being louder than any unamplified instrument or performer in the room -- not everyone has this advantage. :) ) I normally choose to be polite, because life is just more pleasant that way for everyone.

And if we all choose to be polite, well, then they may think it's a movement. And that's what it is, the Chaos Circle Anti-Massacre Movement. And all you've got to do to join is to sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar here...

Comments

[vixyish.livejournal.com]

*giggle* You can sing anything you want, at Roper's Restaurant!

Er, wait. ;)

The members-of-a-group thing in bardic circles is something I try to be aware of. Once upon a time when nobody knew who Fishy and I were, it wasn't really an issue, and we *might* use it as a chance to do two of our things in a row, because that might be all we did that night. But even back then, we wouldn't always do that (especially if there was someone else present who we were excited about hearing, and wanted to use our turn to request something of them.)

Now that I've been lucky enough to be in a position where people know who Tony and I are, I try to pay more attention to that. Most bardic circles I've found myself in still give Tony and me each our own turn. Sometimes Tony will have something he wants us to do, and sometimes not; either way, I'll usually use my turn to request something from someone else, because I know we'll probably get requests from others anyway. And either way it feels like sort of a little present; I get to request things that I hardly ever (or never!) get the chance to hear otherwise.

I'll usually look around for someone I don't get to share a circle with or hear a concert from very often, or haven't in a long time. It's sort of like a treat. :)

[cadhla.livejournal.com]

There's also the question, at that point, of 'actual groups' versus 'perceived groups'. I'm not currently formally in any musical group other than Lady Mondegreen, but as I tend to perform with Paul Kwinn, or with you and Tony, people who don't actually know us may make assumptions.

If Merav's on the other side of the circle and calls for an LMG assembly, is that my turn, even though their material is entirely different from mine? If I sing something with you and Tony accompanying, was that your turn, even though we're not a musical group, and my material isn't yours? And so on.

The nuances make my head hurt.

[phillip2637.livejournal.com]

I'm curious how you view song requests within a chaos circle.

At each of the last two "Dead Penguins" I've asked a person -- a different person each time -- who I don't hear much if they would do some particular song. It's very common in our house filk circles, but at a con I suppose it could be seen as a form of interference with the singer's access to a scarce resource. (That is, they "use up" a 'turn' to sing what I want instead of what they might want.)

[allisona.livejournal.com]

I never find that to be a problem. If someone requests a song from UT in a circle we do one of two things, if we have the sheet music/practice, etc., to sing the song:

A) We pull it out and sing it and consider it our turn until another turn naturally comes about.

B) We tell the person we have something up we'd like to do next, but we'll gladly do the requested song later in the filk.


Being "requested" to do a song is almost always flattering :).

[billroper]

And what Allison said is pretty much my practice too. If the song seems like a reasonable thing to sing now and I haven't sung too recently, I'll pull it out and do it if I know it.

If it seems like too much of a mood-breaker right then, I may ask if I can do it later when the mood has shifted. Going from "Rocket Ride" directly to "Wind From Rainbow's End" might leave folks with whiplash. :)

[gundo.livejournal.com]

I like your comment about singing as a band...Toyboat has sung as a band in...4 circles now, I think. Once at Duck last year, twice at OVFF, and once at Capricon.

I know that I regarded our songs at Duck as part of my turn, and after I got the gear out of there I waited another "round" before I started to look for an opportunity to sing a song solo.

At the same time, when anach and I sit next to each other and sing, we're not a duet. He has his repertoire and I have mine (and a few songs we've stolen from each other), we just happen to be good friends who play together a *lot*. So in a bardic circle we'd both sing, but Toyboat might only sing once.

[billroper]

That makes sense to me.

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

If one attends filksings only occasionally, it is harder to perceive the underlying structure of chaotic circe that you seem to perceive so clearly.

One wonders "what are the rules?" "Should I try to sing now?" "Am I good enough to perform in front of these other frighteningly talented people?" And so forth. Even though, as you well know, I am a ham.

That said, in the mid-Eighties, after years of pretty much avoiding filksings, you got me to attend one-- I think at the Phoenix NASFIC. I found that the mysterious, dominant Group X (which on prior occasions had consisted of strangers or faint acquaintances) now included you and several other people I knew well. And you made me feel welcome. So I was more comfortable participating, then and afterwards.

I do still worry about whether I am jumping in too often.

Also, after reading your elaborate essay the other day, I will be concerned that my crude perceptions will fail to choose the perfect "follower" song, and that I will play something inappropriate which shatters the fragile and delicate mood of the filksing. Because no way am I good enough to sniff the delicate psychic vibrations and come up with the ideal song; picking something to which I think I will remember most of the words and most of the chords is a more immediate goal!

[mia-mcdavid.livejournal.com]

Beamjocky, Dear:

1) We want to hear from you any time you want to play and wish you would show up more.

2) Would rather hear you do something that's not a perfect follower than not hear you at all.

3) DO appreciate the fact that you don't want to be a filkhog, but think you're overdoing it a good deal.

Cheers!

[min0taur.livejournal.com]

>"to choose the perfect "follower" song..."

I've often found that elusive anyway. I've also seen filksings veer unexpectedly like a UFO into whole different directions that have been welcomed. Sometimes that works fine. Other times some folks may have a set notion about what they want the filksing to be -- but if that hasn't been overtly agreed upon in advance (say, as a "themed" filk), the occasional wild tangent may be just what's needed.

[billroper]

Picking a follower is less about trying to pick the perfect thing than getting into a tug-of-war over what the sing is going to do. If the sing is heading off into a mellow direction, it probably should be allowed to be mellow for a while. If the sing is heading off in a funny direction, it should probably be allowed to be funny for a while.

The trick is figuring out how to gently move from one mood to another after some reasonable length of time. I tend to think that if you've spent a half-an-hour or so on one mood or theme, it's time to shift to something else.

[catalana.livejournal.com]

One thing to remember, though, is that while some people are loving the direction a filk circle is going in, other people may be desperately hoping that someone will change the mood. (Like, say, me if we've had 45 minutes of funny songs and I really wish I could play something.) So chances are that you're not doing anything irrecoverable to the circle.

Letters

[mia-mcdavid.livejournal.com]

Ohhh, you had so many letters going on, and superletters, that my head started to spin.

It's partly a personality thing and partly a talent-level thing. I would usually choose, in my Ideal FilkSing, to sing two or three times in an evening, tops. I don't have an instrument, and so I'm restricted to things SI can do well a capella; I also want to hear what the other people are doing.

My problem with Bardic pass/play is that, I feel stupid if I sit in circle and keep passing, but there's no way in if I don't sit in circle. OTOH, I have a plenty strong enough personality and voice to grab the floor if it seems like a good time for something I do well.

A lot of people's problem with Bardic PPP is the obverse side of "the same people playing all the time"--I think you called that Supergroup X? It's that, for talented musicians, they can end up feeling like a walking juke-box; just sittin' there filling the requests till they're ready to throw up. Sometimes *they* may want to hear other people, too, and sometimes they may just feel taken advantage of.

So, I have problems with Bardic PP and see the disadvantages with Bardic PPP; I like Chaos better. But, I know *wonderful* performers who don't like to put themselves forward and would never sing in a Chaos circle.

Life is complicated. I appreciate how hard you are thinking about this...

[maverick-weirdo.livejournal.com]

The problem with your suggestions for groups Y and Z is that it puts the challenge of taking a turn on the inexperienced (who may not read your LJ, or know that they could ask someone from group X for help.)

My preference is for Moderated Chaos, where there is someone experienced looking out for the Y's & Z's

[billroper]

Understood.

Part of what I hope for in writing all this is to encourage the other members of our self-selected group X to watch out for the Ys and Zs...

[min0taur.livejournal.com]

Seems like it's still (always) a moving target -- and still invaluable to keep shooting for -- to wit: As close as we can get to an ideally balanced social interaction amongst creative folks who are jazzed/excited/shy/terrified about being in the same room with a lot of *other* creative folks. It is such a change from the everyday, along so many axes, that it's easy to get carried away unless there's enough consciousness in the room that's both enjoying and paying responsible attention.

As always, it's way too easy to lose track of a certain delicate balance: upholding the vitality of the filk room's welcoming "safe space" while still inviting everyone to do his or her best to reward all that attention that's being claimed and paid. Yeah (regrettably), been there, done that loss-of-balance thing (I hope not too often). That's one reason I'm glad the conversation continues about filk -- not only what it is, but how it's done *and shared* best (without the sharing, it's missing a wing). Thanks for some ever-timely and articulate reminders.

[billroper]

I don't recall ever having seen you shoot off into the filkhog area. More often, you have to be encouraged to play.

Of course, I'm quite willing to encourage you... :)

And you're quite right about the sharing -- without that, we could all just go sing alone in our individual rooms.

[judifilksign.livejournal.com]

In pick, pass, or play, (and chaos, even)I get tagged alot to sign folks' songs that people are just "dying" to see how could be signed. I feel like I'm "up" a lot, and then feel awkward when I actually want to *sing* something. (Haven't I already had a lot of turns?)

I also worry that if there's a song I personally love (Oh, "The Girl That's Never Been," for example, or "Green Hills of Harmony,") and I jump on board to sign, I'm overhogging. Generally, folks are supremely positive about my signing whenever I feel the urge. And, as mentioned, I get asked alot.

When there are multiple filk rooms, like at the filking conventions, it's easier to move to a space and place that suits your mood.
At cons where there is limited filk space, it can be hard.

[maverick-weirdo.livejournal.com]

To my eyes, when you are signing you are an accompanist, just as a guitarist might play along on many songs over the course of a circle.

Unless you chose the song, I don't think signing should count as your turn.

I also think you should sing more often in circle anyway.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

I think the general rule for playing along on an instrument, or singing a harmony line, is that it's OK by default as long as (a) you don't throw off the person doing the song, and (b) you don't upstage them. If you seem to be doing either one, back off until you're sure you're not (stop if you're not sure). I don't see any reason why signing should be any different. Additionally, I don't think that playing a supporting role for someone else should ever count as your turn. (I would hate to think that if someone asked me to accompany them, that put me in a bind of either refusing or giving up my turn to actually sing the song I wanted to sing.)

[unkbar.livejournal.com]

Who knew that something so spontaneous and unorganized as a chaos circle could support so much analysis? Or have so many unwritten rules?

[min0taur.livejournal.com]

So true. So human. It's the kind of stuff folklorists get way into. ;-) And I rather suspect that when one does something in the social arena and *really, really likes it*, it's going to be repeated -- "as often as I can get away with it" -- and if more than one person is doing that, the unwritten rules (the fodder of analysis, yes indeed) start forming. Maybe they're like fluid dynamics. Hey, in a hundred years, maybe filking will be a classic subject in Chaos Theory.

[janeg.livejournal.com]

Wonderful set of discussions.

I fall into Group Y - want to sing occasionally. One thing that has not been mentioned is how much harder it is for us to signal a desire to sing if we do not play an instrument. And my personal guitarist is not aggressive by nature (now there is an understatement!).

So even though I may never be part of Group X, I try to watch for other shy singers who have opened a song book and look eager. I enjoy slightly moderated polite chaos where some individuals take responsibility for encouraging less confident filkers. Gardening is a hobby of mine, and I love watching filk gardeners at work.

I used to think bardic a good idea since I saw people singing who never otherwise lead a song. But I now realize the cons outweigh the pros, though a single round of bardic in a long open filk may the best way to reach Bill's group Z filkers.

I suggest anyone finding themselves at a PPP session try to very early establish a rule that no one can be "picked" more than once in a round. That is, no one can lead more than twice in a round - their own turn plus a pick. And I really glad that many filkers are comfortable saying they will get to the request later when it suits the mood.

IMHO, if all three members of UT or any other group are in a circle, they are individuals who can each take a turn without hogging.

Question: Could filkdom develop some polite way to ask filk hogs to wait a while for others to catch up on turns, rather than having to vote with our feet and leave a circle we would otherwise enjoy? I have left OVFF circles for this, and been sad - especially since I genuinely LIKE the people who are in a particularly extroverted mood that might and may have completely failed to notice that they are oinking.

[allisona.livejournal.com]

Re: A group like UT taking one turn or three:

Thing is that our vocals and instrumentals are so entwined together it doesn't make sense for us to say we can do three songs in close order- I mean, three UT songs in an hour is filk-hogging no matter how you slice it :) (depending on the size of the circle). Now, I suppose if we did one UT song, one Debbie kalimba solo and one Jodi jazz number with another guitarist it could be justifiable, but in circles that all three of UT are in we tend to play together, so we do see ourselves as one entity and therefore take one turn.

In "pick, pass or play" situations (which we prefer to avoid, but do end up in occasionally) we will inevitably sing one UT song and pick two songs by other people :).

Filkhogging situations are, of course, as individual as each circle. Some folks who are filkhogging and have it pointed out to them tactfully are very good-natured about cutting back. Others will fight tooth and nail to prove their right to sing again, "but it's a FOLLOWER.". I've left circles due to filkhogging, too. The reality sometimes, too, though, is that certain circles may be receptive to hearing certain individuals more than may be their normal number of turns- they want to be that way, so voting with my feet is to the health of the circle (as Bill would sagely say) and to my happiness to finding a better circle, too.

But maybe that's just my filk "politeness" coming through again ;).

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

You have a good point, and I hereby pledge to try to do better to show courtesy, empathy and group awareness.

Plus I hereby offer myself as a facultatively (that means I can do it when I need to) bold person to make a shy person a space in a chaos filksing.

And one thing that I will point out is that when a filker means to start, and clashes with somebody else who wants to start, it is possible to enter a figurative cue, like "okay, you go first, and I'll go after" or something like that. Not being able to merge just then shouldn't mean you can't go at all.

[billroper]

Right. I'll usually preface that statement with "If you're not going to change the mood, why don't you go first and I'll follow?" or "I was going to change the mood -- do you want to go first and I'll follow?" depending on what I had in mind, just so we can avoid jerking the mood of the circle in too many different directions.

Adding Complexity

[carolf.livejournal.com]

Re: trying to pin down the "rules."

Don't the rules change a bit with the venue? At a filkcon, particularly a relatively rich one, we can expect multiple rooms for themes and alternatives and such like. At a general or media con - not so much.

When the options are filkroom or your own room (or staircase), then the flow and manners in the filkroom are imperative. The circle will tend to be large, simply because there's only one. Maybe the concom member organizing filk might consider being or appointing unobtrusive moderation to keep things on track if necessary?

As for non-filk friendly cons ... well, we already face challenges.

[sraun]

Is there a "Pick, Pass or Play" variation that explicitly includes either a decline or a pass-along? I.e., the person who's picked can either say 'no' (always an option, but maybe not exercised as frequently as it should be), or can pick/pass along to someone else?

I can envision circumstances where WellKnownFilkerA is known for SongA, but likes to hear FilkerB do it - I could then see WellKnownFilkerA passing a request for SongA to FilkerB.

[billroper]

I don't know if it's explicit, but I've certainly seen it done.