Overload

[billroper]

bedlamhouse posts here with a link to Eric Zorn's Chicago Tribune column on yesterday's rallies in favor of -- not to mince words -- illegal immigration. It concludes with a truly touching reference to a young girl wearing a t-shirt with the slogan written on it with a marker pen, "Don't Take My Dreams Away".

And it's true. It's heartbreaking to think of doing that. And what does it hurt if you take care of one young girl?

Now, I didn't write yesterday's post thinking about this particular issue at all. But isn't it a similar question?

One young girl here illegally pursuing a dream is not a problem. One person who doesn't vote is not a problem.

But it's a problem if no one votes. And 11 million illegal immigrants is a problem too.

Isn't it?

Comments

[kevinnickerson.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's a problem, I'm not sure. I cut it into two parts. Is the problem that so many Mexicans (let's face it, we're only talking about Mexican's in this) are here? Or is the only problem that they didn't follow the rules?

Listening to the political debates, we get two views. The first is that we need these people, we're just upset that our laws don't permit us to get them legally, and we don't want to encourage them coming illegally.

The other view is that they're depriving American's of jobs picking our lettuce.

To me the *illegal* part of "11 million illegal immigrants" is of little interest. Would "11 million immigrants" be a problem? If so, we've got an immigration and border problem. If not, we just need to fix our laws.

[drawshad.livejournal.com]

I think we're handling the 11 million immigrants. I, personally (since it means a hill of beans), sees the problem as the illegal part. They aren't paying taxes, they are taking advantage of health care and they are sending the majority of the money they make back to Mexico, which isn't helping our economy.

I have no desire to pick lettuce and don't know many people who do, so I don't think the immigrants are depriving Americans of jobs. After all, the Wendy's by my parents house pays $10/hour trying to entice American high school students to work there (it's beneath them).

I just have to remember that if the laws are relaxed and there are fewer illegals picking my lettuce that I need to not be the first person complaining when the prices go up.

[kevinnickerson.livejournal.com]

I believe you are wrong on the taxes part. They are paying taxes. Income, Social Security (FICA), and Medicare. All of these get withheld from their paychecks, and since they can never get anything back on that money it's a net gain to you and me.

Health care, well maybe, but I'm not sure it's more than a drop in the bucket. No, that's not quite correct. I'm pretty darn sure it's not more than a drop, but we're counting drops in Roper's journal, so we'll count it. Ditto on the money sent back to Mexico, it's not very much because they aren't paid very much.

[pheltzer.livejournal.com]

There is a certain assumption that you're making. That the illegals are being paid on the books. Are some of them being paid on the books and having the appropriate deductions made... sure. Are the majority of them being paid that way? Who knows. I'm willing to bet that large numbers of the migrant farm workers, landscapers for small companies, and other variety of "daily workers" are being paid off the books and are making considerably less than minimum wage. I know this was true in Miami and in L.A. and probably in Chicago where there are certain street corners you can go to in the morning, saying "I need 5 men to help lay sod and I'll pay $5 an hour" and there will be men getting in line to help out.

And while Health Care in and of itself might be a drop in the bucket, they are also partaking of the education system, food stamps, welfare, and other civil services. Part of the problem is the "Well if you're born here you're a citizen legalities." Part of me thinks that if your parents are here illegally then you shouldn't get a free pass on the citizenship. One it would discourage people coming here when they're pregnant, overstaying their visa, and then suddenly being allowed to stay since they are caring for a U.S. Citizen. Although I think these rules have changed somewhat, they had been in place for a good long time.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

The bit about "if you're born here, you're a citizen no matter what" is one of the egregious bugs in our Constitution, but it's part of the Constitution and can't just be ignored because it's inconvenient, or even because it was a mistake.

[pheltzer.livejournal.com]

Not saying it should be ignored... but the Constitution is a living document... it could be changed. I know there has been some nibling away the rules in the last 10 or 20 years just not sure how much.

[madfilkentist]

Argh, the old "the Constitution is a living, breathing document" bull. If we're going to say that the Constitution means whatever the people in power want it to mean, why bother to have the pretense of a Constitution in the first place?

[pheltzer.livejournal.com]

But if it weren't a living breathing document you wouldn't have any of the ammendments that currently exist. The fact remains... it can be changed, it in fact spells out within itself how to change it. So yes... it is the will of the people currently in power. And the people who come next can change it back if they see fit and can get the support.

[billroper]

I've seen arguments that illegal immigrants are not "subject to the Jurisdiction" of the U.S. under the 14th Amendment, since they're not here legally; thus, any children of illegal immigrants would not be Constitutionally guaranteed automatic U.S. citizenship.

This article doesn't explicitly address that question, but does discuss what it means to be a natural-born citizen.

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

[T]here are certain street corners you can go to in the morning, saying "I need 5 men to help lay sod and I'll pay $5 an hour" and there will be men getting in line to help out.

You're right on the edge of something here, something that's been mostly ignored in the discussions I've seen. People come here illegally because that $5/hour (or less) is still a lot more than they can ever earn at home. If the government were serious about reducing that 11 million, the most efficient way to do it is to crack down on the employers, the ones who make their money (and yes, in some cases, stay in business) because they create jobs that "Americans won't take" because the wages are so low. If the jobs aren't here, there's no reason for people to risk so much to come here.

I, for one, will be very, very surprised if this Congress and this administration passes any bill that includes strong penalties for employers.

[drawshad.livejournal.com]

There is a gentleman at my job who thinks the same thing. If being an illegal immigrant is a criminal act, then the employers who pay them can and should be brought up on charges of aiding and abetting.

[billroper]

I'm good with that. And I don't think that a Democratic-controlled Congress would be any more likely to pass legislation that would restrict illegal immigration than the current one. Certainly, I'd get that impression from listening to Harry Reid, unless I'm recalling incorrectly.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I think quite a lot of money gets sent back to Mexico. Millions and millions of dollars. "Envios" makes up something like the 3rd (maybe the 5th, I forget) highest source of foreign exchange in Ecuador's economy.

K. [and there's a lot more Mexicans here than Ecuadorans]

Health Care

[(Anonymous)]

It's a lot more than a drop in the bucket.

Between uninsured citizens and non-citizens, health care in emergency departments costs upwards of 4 billion a year. And Medicare is currently predicted to go broke in 12 years.

Look at how many hospitals have closed in the past 10 years. All of them closed - all of them - because they weren't able to cover the costs of the uninsured using their facitilies. And under EMTALA, no one can be denied services - and they aren't.

Problems? Emergency room care is hideously expensive and inefficient, especially if you have to keep translators on hand 24/7.
But primary care and public health doctors go broke if a majority of their practice is uninsured.

I don't pretend to have an answer. But it's more than a drop.

DB

Re: Health Care

[kevinnickerson.livejournal.com]

You've changed the question. I was talking about illegal aliens. You've brought in uninsured citizens. Is the combination a huge problem. Yes. Is the illegal alien part more than a drop? I suspect not.

[billroper]

Let me start by saying that I believe that there's a need for peak season "imported" workers during the harvest season. That said, I'm not sure that the illegal immigrants don't deprive U.S. workers of jobs. The question has two parts:

1) Would this job still exist if it had to pay a market-clearing wage in the absence of illegal immigration?

2) Is there anyone to take the job, even if it exists?

Now this report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics indicates that there are 7 million unemployed workers in the U.S. I'd suspect that at least some of them are unskilled and could perform tasks that are currently being performed by illegal immigrants.

Would employers hire our domestic unskilled workers? Apparently not, if they have the choice of hiring illegal immigrants who can be abused in various ways. Or maybe there are no reliable domestic unskilled workers.

The employer might also decide that the job doesn't really need to be done, if he has to pay more for it. I can't tell you what the immigration status of the workers for our lawn service is.

But maybe I should mow my lawn myself, if I don't want to pay the market-clearing wage in the absence of illegal immigration.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

11 million illegal immigrants is certainly a problem. But how much of the problem is the "illegal" part, and how much is the "immigrants" part? I think the basic problem is that we had a fundamentally bad law in place, and rather than fixing the law, we developed a culture of ignoring it. Now, if we try to correct the mistake by cracking down and enforcing the law, we'll create more problems than we solve -- just like any other situation where we have a law that a large number of people who are otherwise mostly good members of society have developed an attachment to disobeying. See Prohibition and the 55 MPH speed limit.

[fireskin.livejournal.com]

Just to be completely politically incorrect, why not just take over Mexico? Their economy would improve, our access to legal workers would improve, border problems would no longer be taking quite so much of our country's money and, since we already support 35% of Mexico's economy through Mexican based American industry our economy could very well improve though the boom that enhanced development could provide.

All hale the Overlord!

[billroper]

That strikes me as volunteering to have our own version of Quebec. While my Canadian friends have learned to live with it, I'm not sure that I'd want to. :)

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, not quite, they lost a couple of battles two hundred years ago, and haven't stopped whining about it ever since.

[smoooom.livejournal.com]

It's a problem that we have as well. There are no easy answers, if you make exceptions for one person then you start a bad thing. What bothers me the most are the illegal immigrants who are here and who are breaking the law over and above that. they aren't contributing to society in a positive way, they don't follow any if the laws. They don't listen to the immigraton people saysing "you have to go home" thye just disapear. The people who are partly obeying the rules are the ones who end up being deported. It's a problem that has been going on for years, and I don't think it's fixable. I wish their was an easy answer, I really do.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

NPR ran a story a few weeks back, probably on This American Life or something, about the volunteer border patrol in the southwest. I'm not taking a position on their stance, indeed from listening to their comments, they have opinions all over the map. However, one of the guys said this (as close as I can remember):

"Look, I go to the animal shelter, and the animals there are so cute. I want to rescue them, to give them a good home. But I can't give a good home to all 200 of them.

I know a lot of illegal immigrants, and EVERY ONE of them is a hard worker, and they're honest, good people, but we believe in the rule of law, and the U.S. should be in control of who enters. If we NEED these workers, then let them in legally so they can be a fully functioning part of society."

It's a weird analogy that I'm not sure I like, but it's a decent point. FWIW, this particular guy's wife is Mexican.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

The This American Life story about the Minutemen did more to discredit the Minutemen than all of the regular media stories I've encountered put together. It showed, pretty convincingly, that the bunch they did the story on were not actually motivated by a real desire to protect the country against illegal immigrants, they were just motivated by a desire to make themselves feel useful and important.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was my feeling as well. As I said, all of them had a different story, they were all over the map. They did not impress me, in fact in general I though they were a bunch of goofs. Of course, I thought that to some degree of the people who came out to harass them as well. That one guy said that one thing, which had a nugget of truth to it.

I'm not against immigration at all, but I think it's pretty ridiculous how huge and out in the open illegal immigration is. Making people risk their lives to come here, live in fear for years, then grant them all citizenship opportunities at random intervals seems a bad way to do things.

Of course, the ideal situation is to help Mexico's economy improve to the point where there's not that much incentive to leave. But coming up with a viable way to do that which can be sold politically may be very difficult, even if there was a will to do it.

[bedlamhouse]

I got bit by the LJ attack and couldn't leave a response yesterday...

I read the "Don't Take My Dreams Away" part as referring to the need to have a sensible immigration policy that allows people to achieve the dream of coming to the US, not that such little girls should all be taken care of.