billroper | Wenching For Fun and Profit

Entry tags:

Wenching For Fun and Profit

I actually generally enjoy the antics of the Interfilk Wench Corps, as they're quite complementary to the antics of the Interfilk Auctioneer Corps, and help in the goal of having a good time and raising a good amount of money for Interfilk. That said, when things get out of control, two things happen. First, we have a danger of descending into something that's possibly a bit more raunchy than is actually wise. Second, we make the auction take a very long time. Given that I know that the Interfilk Auction Organizers Brigade is really trying to keep it down to an hour, that latter point is also something to consider.

So here's a modest attempt at codifying the Pirate Code (really more a set of guidelines) for how to handle an Interfilk auction (or any auction) so that it runs smoothly:

Let's start with the auctioneers:

1) Three is a good number. More is ok (within reason), fewer can put too much load onto the auctioneer. Why? Well, keep reading.

2) The auctioneers have three states:
2a) On the stage, auctioning a piece.
2b) Having just left the stage, getting a drink, and going to get the next piece from their runner so they have a moment to think about how they want to handle it.
2c) Waiting with their piece and runner so that they are ready to take the microphone as soon as the fellow on stage says "Sold!"

With three auctioneers, everyone must be paying attention at all times as they move from one state to another. This is good, because it avoids confusion such as "Who's next?" With fewer auctioneers, states collapse, the work is harder, and the auctioneers less effective.

3) Funny is good. Fast is good. Fast and funny is best. The time spent studying a piece while waiting to go up is an important part of being able to do both. (You think we make up all these lines while standing there with a mic in hand? Ha!)

4) The bidders should be able to know when you are about to sell a piece. Most familiar is "I've got fifty dollars going once. I've got fifty dollars going twice. I've got fifty dollars going for the third and final time. Sold!" Variations are acceptable, but you should be consistent. Why annoy someone by selling something after a two count when you've been using a three count all night?

It is also ok to restart your count if it is interrupted for whatever reason. You don't have to spend forever on each tick of the count, but you do need to spend long enough that no one feels cheated.

5) Know the house rules for handling paperwork. Personally, I insist on having the bid sheet in hand until I have finished announcing the item. After that, if one of the organizers wants me to hand it off, that's just fine. If they want it when the item is sold, that's also fine. Just find out how the paper is being handled and how they want the high bidder to identify themselves. If for whatever reason (lack of sleep?), you've forgotten someone's name, you can indicate "That's sold, right there, for fifty dollars," and the bidder will identify themselves when prompted by the organizers who would really like to have the name. Just remember to do this to your closest friends on occasion as well, so no one knows whose names you actually remember in your sleep-deprived state. :)

6) You are not the star of the show. The items being auctioned are the stars. You are there to make them look good. If for some reason, there is something that you can't find anything nice to say about, consider swapping it with another auctioneer who might have something useful to say. Don't use this as an excuse to hog all the good stuff for yourself. The other auctioneers will notice.

7) The microphone is your friend. It is also almost always set to too high a volume if you have any natural tendency to project. Talking across the side of the mic where it's less sensitive can allow you to operate at a more reasonable volume, making it easier to hear the bids, which again is why you're standing there.

Ok, let's go on to the rules for running (and/or wenching) the items:

1) Runners get more exercise than the auctioneers. This is good, as they are young and agile, while we are old and fat. As a result, you want more runners than auctioneers, but a good rule of thumb is to have no more than twice as many runners as you have auctioneers. Otherwise, the runners don't have enough to do, they lose focus, and chaos ensues.

2) Runners have three states:
2a) Running the current piece.
2b) Taking the just-sold piece back to the table so that it can be handled by the organizers; then picking up a new piece.
2c) Waiting with a piece for it to be their turn again. This includes chatting (quietly) with an auctioneer about how they want to handle the piece.

3) It is nice if the runners are well-dressed, but it isn't a requirement. The runners should not distract from the display of the item that they are running.

4) The runners also need to know how the organizers want the paperwork and pieces handled.

5) It is important that people who are interested in bidding on an item get a chance to look at it. Those who want to see it more closely have usually been instructed to yell "Runner!" and raise their hands. Listen for the call, look for the raised hands, and go there to give them a closer look. The auctioneer may also tell you to show the item to someone who's been bidding already in his attempts to extract some more dollars from them.

Now we move from "running" into "wenching", with the supplemental rules for Interfilk auctions.

6) Don't do anything that you would be unwilling to do in the presence of your or the bidder's SO. If your preferences in this area are a couple of standard deviations out from the fannish norm, think it over first. :)

7) The wenching gang tackle is fun to watch. Once. Maybe twice or even three times during an auction. But not so much in quick succession. The problem with pulling out the big guns is that you get into "Can you top this?" mode. And, being fans, someone will try. If we're lucky, it'll be funny. If we're not...

8) Fast is good. Funny is good. Fast and funny is best. The wenching gang tackle fails on the fast part of it, especially when overused. Generally, one or two good wenches are funnier than the mob. More effective too. The person bidding on the piece is more likely to be impressed by something that they are getting that is unique than by something that they've seen a lot. (Don't take the "unique" part as a challenge. :) )

I think that'll do for the time being.

Corrections and additions are welcome!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

And how are we going to limit the number of wenches? We've tried a couple of times and people have thrown hissy fits because they wanted to wench and specifically brought something to wear and now we're telling them they can't. We desperately need to cut the numbers, but there doesn't seem to be any way to do it without people getting upset. And I already get enough grief about Pegasus awards without wanting to generate more about wenching. (Since Judith, Persis, Trace, and I are kind of the Interfilk Auction team, along with you, Sutton, and Simmons as auctioneers. *grin*)

Maybe a first come, first served sign up? Or maybe shifts - 6 can wench the 1st half and 6 the 2nd half?

Sometimes those most eager to wench are those who like the limelight but don't have the right attitude. Build is nice, costume is nice, but attitude is what makes the wench.

And Bill is making some good points, which I'll likely save. Being rather ill (and therefore forgetful), I didn't orient the wenches properly, so I'll take the blame on that. We did put a limit on when to pour it on, but that got ignored.

The issue of the professional auctioneer does make a difference. He doesn't have the same sense of when to hurry things along and cut off an item when interest is waning. Our fannish auctineers do.

I WANT the auction to be ONE HOUR. No more. 1.25 if absolutely necessary. Damn, I hate it when it goes too long. People lose interest and patience.

My impression is that Bill created these rules for auctions in general, and then added Interfilk-specific stuff at the end. While I agree that 2 x auctioneers is a good ratio at a general art auction, where the runners may be inexperienced draftees, cutting the number is, I think, less urgent for Interfilk. The wenches are experienced enough to have a very good idea of what they're doing, and dedicated enough to keep their focus. At OVFF, they lined up neatly, pieces in hand, and everything ran smoothly, at least as far as I know.

For the gang tackles, maybe we could just raise the threshold. Right now, the mob seems to get going at anything above $100. Tell everyone in advance to hold back unless there's $300 at stake, or $500, and we reduce the number.

The rules for the auctioneers are more stable (IMO) from the general fannish auction to the Interfilk auction environment. Because of the Interfilk wenching tradition, the runner instructions got an addendum.

I stand by my comments about too many wenches. I've seen a lot of Interfilk auctions, and the biggest problems occur when there are too many or too few wenches. You need 4-6 wenches. More than that starts creating problems of organization and traffic flow. This isn't to say that any of the wenches were being unprofessional or not dedicated or anything. There were just too many cooks in that broth.

Right. This is similar to the problem you can get when you have too many auctioneers. Despite their best intentions, you'll find that they lose track of when they're supposed to go up and you get dead air. Dead air at an auction is a bad thing. It also makes things more confusing when you have someone who has Clemmered every piece in the auction into a specific order that he'd like to have them sold in, since more auctioneers means more chances to get a piece (or three) out of order.

Above $100 is, in fact, what I was told at Consonance-- I want to say by Kathleen but I'm not entirely sure by whom.

Once or twice there was a time when an inexperienced wench (once, it was me) didn't seem to know what to do and kinda froze up, and Kathleen let out a jolly "c'mon, she needs some help!" and two or three others came over. But that was kind of an unusual circumstance.

So yeah, raising that limit, saying really, one wench at a time unless it gets above $500, would probably help the gang-tackle and time problems a whole lot.

(The other exception would be when the item is the donation of the Interfilk guest themselves, and then maybe they get to wench/run too if they'd like, in addition to one wench. But again not a gang.)

Oh, I agree that figuring out how to limit the number of wenches is a minefield. I'm just laying out optimum guidelines to see how they look. Getting to execute them is another problem altogether.

As a sometime wench/runner, I'd like to comment from my end. Your opinion may vary.

a. I never know if I'm going to wench (or run, if it's a tamer auction) until the time comes. I like to dress up on some Saturday nights, and sometimes I can use that to advantage. But if you already have enough runners/wenches, say so. My feelings will not be hurt.

b. As a follow on from a. - If you have rules for when the runners mob the bidder, or what a mob consists of, say so (or print it up in advance, so I can read the rules while waiting). I can't tell you the number of auctions I've worked where I had to figure out what the rules were by observation. And that includes Worldcon Art Auctions, so let's not get picky about where.

c. For wenching behavior - well, I was at OVFF too, and I don't agree that the auction got past PG - then again, you shouldn't see what passes for PG-13 these days in movies. YMMV.

That's a view from my end.
Deja

"First, we have a danger of descending into something that's possibly a bit more raunchy than is actually wise."

I'm afraid I'm unclear on this 'more raunchy than is actually wise' concept...

Then again, I've not been to an Interfilk auction.

Interfilk auction wenching started from a certain level of flirting and has progressed up from there. Some auctions are more tame than others. :)

OVFF is a special case, in that the fannish auctioneers (this year, me and Sutton) are there to introduce the pieces and keep the flow going, and the required-by-law licensed auctioneer handles the bidding. Bob does a good job, but this year he let a number of pieces go on too long. Someone should talk to him prior to next year's auction. (Also, since this setup results in the fannish auctioneers having much more off-stage time, two of them is sufficient.)

The auctioneer is in a position to override the pace set by the wench mob, simply by *immediately* following the latest bid with, "We have two hundred, two hundred going once, two hundred going twice . . ." (Again, we should pass this on to Bob.)

Supplemental rule for those donating to an Interfilk auction:

If the item you're donating is so unique that you really, really need to get up in front of the audience and introduce it, think about what you're going to say in advance, cut it to the absolute minimum, and rehearse it. The auctioneers are used to doing this on the fly - you're not. If the item is a custom CD, don't list every performer and every track.

(There are rare exceptions to the "keep it short" rule. We had one this year. Barry's description of the guitar he donated was longer than the auction average, but he needed to point out several things, and he covered each point quickly.)

Yes, Barry's description of the guitar was excellent and to the point.

And I agree that OVFF is a special case and that two "auctioneers" are sufficient in that sort of arrangement.

For an item that was a steal at the $775 it sold for (if I had been continuously employed for the last two years, I would have bid a good deal more myself), Barry's introduction was perfectly appropriate. For something that isn't expected to go over $200, no matter how cool it is it shouldn't get a big special presentation during the live auction.

Tossing out other things in general and no particular order

- An auctioneer should never linger over a piece. Nothing will kill the energy of an auction than trying to wring every penny out of piece. A good auctioneer should have a feel for when the piece is done.

- I have always thought there should be one more running than auctioneers. The runners often have much more work to do.

- Runners should be seen and rarely heard. I've done auctions where the runners want to play to and always feel they need to comment. Now and Then, a choice runner joke or comment is great. But too much and its a distraction (see above comment about who the star of the show is).

- As a rule of thumb, never insult a piece or an artist. One can poke fun at artists IF you know them very very well and know the level of joking you can do with them. But no matter how much you are picking on an artist, just AVOID insulting the art. You are here to sell the art, talking it down is at odds with your job.

There are exceptions. Remember the days of Beth Willinger, and SLATE. No matter how much we made fun of how sharp the slate was and how much were weren't going to give then runners gloves, we NEVER made fun of Beth's work.

- To echo your above comment, ALWAYS find something nice to say about a piece. You are here to sell it.

- If there is a mic, yes, practice with it, find that sweet spot.

- Don't Talk Too Fast. As anyone who's done theatre will tell you, people tend to talk too fast. Slow and clear. Until you get use to it, it will feel like you are speaking in slow motion. In a big room, you have to worry about delay. If you talk to fast, even with speakers, the people at the back of the room will just hear a muddle. Slow and Clear.

- No matter how many cattle auctions you've seen on TV, the "Heybatter batter how many howmany20 gotcha 20 gotcha 50" kinda of patter should STAY at the cattle auction. Steady pace, speak clearly and LISTEN.

(If you ever watch "Cash in the Attic" on BBC America, you'll hear some fine auctioneering. Slow, clear, working the room, no beating around the bush)

- No matter how many cattle auctions you've seen on TV, the "Heybatter batter how many howmany20 gotcha 20 gotcha 50" kinda of patter should STAY at the cattle auction. Steady pace, speak clearly and LISTEN.

To be honest, the reason this doesn't work in fandom is that fans just aren't used to it. I've been to (and done, when it comes to that) plenty of farm style auctions and it seems second nature to me to pick out what is being done and said.

I have, in fact, seen one episode of Cash in the Attic which used more of a patter style in the auction. Don't ask me which one...

Jack Chalker went out and trained to do this style of auctioneering. It was apparently quite a shock at the first auction he used it at. :)

Definitely OVFF is a special case.

As mentioned, the professional auctioneer doesn't quite get the mood of the bidders. In many ways, knowing when a bidder's "lips say no, no but his eyes say YES" vs. "no means no" is an art form developed within art auction style bidding. This leads to a little bit longer patter, and my estimate is that it added about 15 minutes to the auction. In his defense, his job is to know the value of items before starting up so that he knows what they will go for and knows about when to stop - we often don't know what items will go for so we can't give him any kind of estimate.

Also as mentioned, the professional auctioneer uses farm auction style. We get what is available. What would help is to have some observers around the room (not just at the front and not just the "fan auctioneers") to point and shout "yes" when a bidder bids. That observer then stays with that bidder until it is either clearly a 2-person bid off or until that bidder drops out. Using such observers might also help with getting things cut short. Unfortunately, this is not easy to do properly and takes some practice.

When I move back to God's Country (*grin*), one of my hopes (don't know if it is possible yet) is to apprentice to the auctioneers in my home town and try to get my Indiana auctioneer's license. If I can do that, I can post bond and legally auction (or supervise same) in Ohio. This might help a lot. Of course, this depends on my having time, energy, and other resources typically in fannish short supply...

We made a rule for the wenches this year that mobbing of bidders was not to start until the bid had reached over $50, preferably $75. This kept us from having wench mobs for low-level items. However, there weren't a lot of low-level items.

My opinion as well is that wenching got a little bit out of hand this year - we definitely left PG land in a couple of cases. I'll leave it to the Wench Wranglers (

jhayman and

folkmew) to figure out if there is something that can be done about that.

Finally, while we valiantly try to have most of the Interfilk auctions run an hour or less, OVFF targets an hour and a half. Part of the problem is there are simply far too many great items and part of it is the auction style. Considering we started late (the song contest went over by 10-15 minutes and we waited for people to get back from potty break before we started) we hit 90 minutes almost exactly.

It is a fine line - too short and you wonder if items got stifled before they got their best bids. Too long and people start to get bored. We were on the ragged edge of too long this year, but considering the last item still raised the highest amount of the night I don't think interest was completely lost.

Actually, I don't consider it simply a matter of causing interest to be lost, but also a matter of delaying the start of open filking in what's usually the biggest room that any filkcon has available.

By the way, kudos to OVFF programming this year for concentrating the theme filks into a single room, making the rest of the space available for open filking. Theme filks can be fun, but too many of them scattered across the programming rooms can knock the energy out of the filking.

When you're thinking about how long the auction is, and you folks who think that auctions are a wonderful form of entertainment think it's maybe getting too long, keep in mind that there are a lot of people who don't see it that way.

I really wanted to see Barry's guitar sold, so I actually came to the auction. It's been so long since I've been to an OVFF auction that this is the first time I had seen Bob the auctioneer at all. And my opinion that the OVFF auction is stretched way too long is stronger than ever. The dozen wenches running back and forth was funny once, but if it happens for more than a couple of items, it is just wasting time. I think that even having a regular runner carry the item back and forth between bidders while the auctioneer tries to tease more bids out of the bidders is a bad use of time. Perhaps it actually coaxes people to bid more than they would -- I say perhaps because I know that many people never spit out their bid until "third and final time" even though they know they're going to make the bid as soon as the other bidder starts speaking. (I actually think it's good to occasionally have the auctioneer skip "going three times" and go straight to "sold" -- the bidders who are just trying to grab the maximum amount of attention by pretending to not decide until the last possible instant deserve to risk losing their item.) But for every extra dollar you get from milking the auction, how many dollars are you losing from the people that left, or never came to the auction in the first place, because the slow pace is so frustrating? How many dollars are you losing because you can only have a very small number of items going to voice auction? I attend a game auction every year at our local gaming convention. The auctioneers there are nowhere near as skillful as the ones at art shows and Interfilk auctions, but the style they use is more efficient; they get through well over a hundred items in a two hour auction. I don't think that style would go over for Interfilk or an art show, but I do think the mindset of really keeping things moving would be good.

I had no idea there was a too-many-cooks problem, and perhaps part of the cause is that that isn't being made clear to the wenches.

If this is something people are supposed to know from experience, it isn't getting told to us newbies! I first got invited to be a runner when I donated something. Then I got encouraged/drafted by other wenches to join in. After that it was just The Game Anyone Could Play. I decided that I was not going to wench at FKO-- and then ended up getting hollered at to get up and do it anyway. This year I really wasn't going to wench-- but by this time I had started to feel like it was expected of me.

So I didn't know that there ever had been limits on the numbers-- or even that there had been particularly any wrangling. Let alone that the numbers were a problem. This is the first I'm hearing of it. I wouldn't have minded being told no!

Now, I did get some good specific instruction: first and foremost, to STOP when they say stop; that is, listen to when the bidder's done bidding, and if they say they really can't afford any more, do not pressure them. That made an impression on me, and more than one bidder at OVFF this year, when I saw them looking frightened or worried, had me whispering in their ear, "it's really okay; you don't have to bid any more if you can't afford it. We don't want to break you!"

I was also told more or less what Bill has said, not to do anything you wouldn't do in public/in front of an SO, and no touching that was sexual. I've seen heads, shoulders, hands, and feet massaged, but I haven't seen any groping.

Paperwork... I learned to ask what the procedure was before I started.

...and that was pretty much it. Most cons this last year, there hasn't been a visible wench-wrangler; there was someone handing out items, but sometimes that was just the auctioneers. If there was someone in charge of actual wenching-- actually telling us what to do-- I didn't know it. So that's one thing-- someone needs to really take charge.

(Special kudos to

jhayman: she had items all handed out and runners lined up, in order, making us all aware who was going with what and in what order, avoiding confusion and traffic problems. It was the most organized auction from that perspective that I've ever seen.)

But again, if there are too many wenches, for heaven's sake somebody say something.. I mean everyone's saying it now, but nobody said it at the time! Y'all gotta teach us new filkers well, feed us on your dreams, and then look at us and sigh... er wait. :)

Maybe a sign-up sheet at the con. Or a rule (posted on the web site?) that you have to email the wrangler/contact person ahead of time. It could go by first come first serve, or by a core of a few of the most experienced (like Erica and Kathleen) followed by first come first serve for who gets added to that core. It's not unreasonable to decide that wenching requires planning ahead of time, like any other scheduled event. People don't all run up and volunteer to be announcers for concerts and get allowed to do it. Perhaps treating it like just another scheduled event with planned participants would help.

Then at the auction itself (and also at the point the wrangler gets enough emails, the wrangler can gently say that this is a prearranged thing, and we've got all the help we need, thank you very much. (I haven't seen the hissy-fits mentioned, but I'm not surprised, and not naive enough to think there won't be any. But if it's this big a problem, then maybe the hissy-fits are the lesser of two evils.)

This would also allow some of the neato things

folkmew mentioned like coordinated costumes. I would dearly love to see that dark suit thing. Or a Matrix theme. Or pajamas!

Oh-- that reminds me of one other smallish thing that might help cut the time down.

I noticed at Consonance and elsewhere that when a bidder was seriously done, no lie, the wenches-- again I got this from Kathleen-- would turn to the auctioneer and signal "no more". (Slashing motion across the neck or whatever.)

The professional auctioneer doesn't seem to know to take notice of this. Granted, the mob-thing is a problem here too, since he can't see the bidder, but generally, the wenches really do know when you aren't going to get any more out of someone, mob or no mob. I've only wenched a few times and even I can tell when someone's done for good. Maybe the professional auctioneer could be told to take that signal? (I don't mean anything against him; just that he's probably not used to dealing with that kind of thing, so maybe it would help to inform him.)

There were a few times he kept on asking the bidder specifically, even after we were waving huge "NOOO" arm signals at him. When you're down to a two-bidder war, and one of them says a definite "no", it's time for the "going once going twice" on the other one.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Wenching For Fun and Profit

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

a view from the other side

From a still-green wench...

Re: From a still-green wench...